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Talk:Zealot of the Lady
Columbian version of KKK I think the crow guy like a combination of Grim-Reaper and KKK mixed. Is he suppose to represent "death" to all races in Columbia, since hes a mixture of a rascist and a reaper.AirPatriot1912 (talk) 18:19, December 31, 2012 (UTC) Due to the fact that his hood is not white, I think it's much more likely that he's supposed to resemble an executioner. I have a feeling that Irrational doesn't have the balls to bring the fucking Klan into their games.Einsteinium99 (talk) 01:07, January 1, 2013 (UTC) Well Ken Levine said that their will be a group of people called the "Feternal Order Of The Raven" who worship John Wilkes Booth, the man who assassinated Abraham Lincoln, Possible reference to the KKK since on IGN they said they look similar to the Crow. in my eyes they could just rascist nutjobs worshiping the wrong things.AirPatriot1912 (talk) 01:15, January 1, 2013 (UTC) Has anyone else noticed that a racist enemy called the Crow may in fact be a reference to the Jim Crow Laws that appeared after the Civil War ended.Werewolfkid (talk) 20:51, March 13, 2013 (UTC) Having played the game now, it's really quite clear that they represent the KKK, what with their role in maintaining white supremacism in Columbia, their hatred of Lincoln, and their attire. Should this be added in "Behind the Scenes"? And in respect to the comment about Irrational's balls, this game is full of racism and contemporary prejudice, including the Klan is just another layer of realism and social commentary, and making sure the city feels like 1912. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 23:29, March 30, 2013 (UTC) "We Dare to Defend Our Country." From what, exactly? ZanyDragon (talk) 05:27, December 9, 2013 (UTC) From whatever they think is going to change 'their country' (the values/customs/established social contract ) from what they have to something alien. See your history to see similar groups in different places at different times. Such groups are usually labeled as 'Reactionary' (despite others mislabelling them as 'Conservatives) as they are trying to go back to a previous system and are 'reacting' to alot of changes which they consider 'for the worst'. They seem a little exclusive to be the KKK which was a group who had millions of members at various times in the US Testxyz (talk) 11:03, December 9, 2013 (UTC) Their master? Is the Crow the leader of The Faternal Order Of The Raven, probably why they wear clothes similar to him.AmberWing65 (talk) 22:39, March 7, 2013 (UTC) Official name? I have the strategy guide here, and while Elizabeth calls the "Crows" (Fair enough), the guide names them "Zealots of the Lady". If anyone has the guide, check pages 105 and 253, whichever takes your fancy. 21:37, March 27, 2013 (UTC) Pics We need some screenshots, badly. This goes for pretty much everything in-game except Elizabeth (who has too many screenshots). I had to go for an Xbox copy because of my cheap PC, or else I would add them myself. Anyone on PC, get these pictures flowing! 16:41, March 31, 2013 (UTC) Can someone get a screenshot of Slate's Soldiers using this crow ability? ZanyDragon (talk) 03:11, October 11, 2013 (UTC) Zealot of the Lady?? It is never referred to as a "Zealot of the Lady" in-game, the only name given is "Crow", which given repeatedly. It is a much more appropriate name, it is what the players (and the people that use this wiki) will refer to it as, basically EVERYTHING except the game guide (game guides are barely canon anyway) refers to the enemy as a Crow, it makes a lot more sense to give it that name. I mean really, ask someone who's played Infinite "how do you kill a Zealot of the Lady?", and they'll give you a blank stare. It's kind of daft to use this title. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 21:16, April 1, 2013 (UTC) Also, does anyone have an in-game source on all that stuff in the guide about Lady Comstock? Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 21:51, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :http://www.2kgames.com/manual/bioshockinfinite/ :The link was at the end of the game manual. :And just saying, a nickname revealed during gameplay videos isn't an official name, such as Handymen being called Alpha. That was also the case for "Alpha Splicers" from BioShock 2, which was in fact the Brute, and/or maybe the Alpha Series themselves. :Pauolo (talk) 21:57, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Except this isn't like the Handymen, because while the manual refers to them as Zealots, in the actual shipped game the only name that is given to them (as far as I know) is "Crow", used during combat. The cultists devoted to John Wilkes Booth are referred to as Zealots, but the Crows are called Crows in the released game, and the game itself trumps a twelve page guide, surely? Not trying to take the piss, but have you played the game Pauolo? Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:03, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :I think I have played the game enough to even read the game manual in search for complementary informations for the wikia, which you don't have obviously, or else you would have notice this web address on its last page, directing to the complete game manual on 2kgames.com. But my question for you will be, would you choose not to believe the game's manual over whatever you could heard pronounced by characters from the game itself? :Pauolo (talk) 22:10, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::I've read the manual, and I'm telling you: a different name is given to them in the game. How do you not get this? In the game, they are called Crows. In the manual, they are called Zealots. The game takes priority, beacuse this wiki is about the game. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:16, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :The game manual is already a good source of info by itself, that was also the case for the previous games (for example, it confirmed us the name of Bio 2's multiplayer and gave a name to the main campaign for our Rapture storyline page). Also, I don't remind any objective, any in-game text that refers to them as Crows, that was mostly what players called them when they appeared on the first gameplay videos because of the very few info on this enemy. In fact, I invite you to search among the game text files when they call them Crows outside from the game characters' speech lines. :Pauolo (talk) 22:34, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :What, are character lines not good enough? Fact is, I've got my source: they are called Crows in-game in speech lines. As far as I know, there is nothing in-game that calls them "Zealots of the Lady". Anything, thats anything ''that is in the shipped game gains a priority over everything outside of the game. You give me a source IN THE BLOODY GAME, the manual is separate and "outranked" by in-game dialogue. And if there is an unresolvable conflict between gameguide and dialogue, then wouldn't the dealbreaker be the name they are most commonly referred to as? I still don't understand how you are giving priority to a brief and obligatory 12-page guide, over the actual game! So yeah, using the actual game, tell me when they are called Zealots of the Lady, 'cos as far as I remember they're called Crows every single time you bump into them. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:44, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::As well as Big Daddies being called Mr. Bubbles, "tin man" or Protectors, should we think again about how to call them instead of Big Daddy, because characters call them differently? ::Pauolo (talk) 22:54, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :::You're still missing the point. There isn't conflict between the Bioshock 1 guide and the released game. In the game different characters give them different names (although Big Daddy is still by far the most prevalent), but since the guide agrees with the game in giving them one main title, that title is used. In this case, the guide and game are actively contradicting each other, so we take the side of the game. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 23:04, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::::And I think you missed mine. When it comes to specific titles for weapons, enemies, locations, upgrades, characters full name or else, I prefer to trust in-game info texts (from game menus, vending machines menus and names that appear when the game invites you to press the use button), game manuals and strategy guides over dialogs between characters to avoid any confusion. Unfortunately, Infinite barely names the enemies through info game texts (apart from the Songbird, the Siren and the Boys of Silence) so i prefer to trust materials such as game manuals and guides. ::::I will also try to confirm the name through the complete artbook which will be released the 9th of this month (and which I was going to buy anyway). If both the game manual, the official guide and the official artbook can't be trusted, the I'll be damned. ::::Pauolo (talk) 23:18, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::::::Whatever you say, but until then the game is the priority, the page should be named after what they are called in-game. And to be honest, the art book would still be unconvincing unless someone goes through the game and finds a point where they are called Zealots of the Lady. Art books are progressive and rarely absolute, they're behind-the-scenes and often non-canon, the game should still take priority. Think of it like this: in most of the Star Wars pre-release materials, Luke was called "Starkiller" or "Darklighter". Should we call the Crow a name that is never, ''ever used in the game? :::Ok, it's getting late for me and I don't want to continue this argument all night. I will see with MegaScience and Will tomorrow what can be worked out, because obviously the problem comes from the game itself which already contradicts several things. I will still keep in mind that calling him what a character nicknames him isn't appropriate, and that the aim of this wikia is to be the uttermost precise in its articles, which we admirably succeeded to do until the release of Infinite. :::Pauolo (talk) 23:54, April 1, 2013 (UTC) :I'm not entirely sure the name change is appropriate. Elizabeth calls the Zealots "Crows" whenever they spawn, and save for the 2K guide there is no other reference to their name Shouldn't we prioritize in-game descriptions over guides? --Willbachbakal (talk) 22:37, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Dunno Will, but I ordered the LE guide so I may be able to confirm it. Still, if we choose not to trust the guide on something as simple as an enemy name, then it would mean the other games' guides aren't trustful sources either, even if we know that's not the case (mostly for BioShock 2 and the ever-changing portrait of Edward Grimes and the incorrect one of Nigel Weir). That said, that would be a bit of a bother over the weapons' names, as you may have noticed the official ones revealed before the game's release do not match the ones used in-game (though the game manuel precises both names for each weapon), but that's a different problem. ::Pauolo (talk) 22:54, April 1, 2013 (UTC) ::Wow. I can't believe something so simple can cause such a big arguement. In any case, the name for the Zealot/Crow seems to be the only inconsistancy between the game and guide. As for the in-game connection to Lady Comstock, one of the Voxboxes (Voxdiary? Can't remember the name) has a recording of the First Zealot's lament about "Sweet mother of Columbia". :: 16:34, April 2, 2013 (UTC) XAudioLogItem Transcript=\"Sweet mother of Columbia, why do we worship three symbols in your memory? We worship the sword, so that we might avenge you. We worship the raven, so that we might cover the city with eyes. We worship the coffin, because it symbolizes the weight of our failure.\" LocationFound=\"The Fraternal Order of the Raven\" DateOfRecording=\"January the 6th, 1912\" ItemName=\"SYMBOLS OF OUR LADY\" ItemDescription=\"– First Zealot\" It is one of those names that is official, but isn't always referenced. It's part of the canon. I get the feeling there -might- be more in Mind in Revolt, but I'm not sure. In any case, Crow is usually referenced as an abbreviation mid battle by someone who wouldn't know their history. That does not invalidate this title at all. --''~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk }'' 21:35, April 2, 2013 (UTC) Subtitles448=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Crow, Booker!\")) Subtitles449=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Booker, a Crow!\")) Subtitles450=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"There\'s a Crow, Booker!\")) Subtitles451=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Watch out! Crow!\")) Subtitles452=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Crow!\")) Subtitles453=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Be careful! There\'s a Crow!\")) Subtitles454=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Crow! See him?\")) Subtitles455=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Elizabeth\",Subtitle=\"Over there! A Crow!\")) ... Crow_Subtitles Subtitles0=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"We bear our shame as a weight on our backs. Lady, forgive those who deserve not your forgivness!\")) Subtitles1=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"Pardon me, Lady! Please! Take this weight off my back, because I cannot bear it!\")) Subtitles2=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"Our Lady\'s blood stains our hands red, as much as the one who killed her.\")) Subtitles3=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"No rest? no rest until the Lady\'s killer is in chains?\")) Subtitles4=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"What will it take to earn your pardon, dear Lady! My back, please, remove my burden!\")) Subtitles5=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"She watches me even from the grave! Her eyes! Her eyes!\")) Subtitles6=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"USELESS!\")) Subtitles7=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"AWAY!\")) Subtitles8=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"FOOL!\")) Subtitles9=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"BACK!\")) Subtitles10=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"DIE!\")) Subtitles11=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"He lied? he betrayed us? false prophet. FALSE!\")) Subtitles12=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"Our only penance is revenge?\")) Subtitles13=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"The False Prophet shall have a shallow grave?\")) Subtitles14=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"Lies and deceit? he knew. He knew!\")) Subtitles15=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"Played for a fool? Played by the false prophet?\")) Subtitles16=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"DECEIVER!\")) Subtitles17=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"LIAR!\")) Subtitles18=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"TRICKSTER!\")) Subtitles19=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"IMPOSTER!\")) Subtitles20=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"CHARLATAN!\")) ... S_TWN2_P_Crow_Subtitles Subtitles0=(Subtitle=(Speaker=\"Crow\",Subtitle=\"And so, the Prophet led us into Peking, where we demonstrated to the Sodom Below the true mission our Founders had given us. And when the Mandarins and hypocrites of Washington betrayed him, our Prophet did not heel. He did not come crawling for their forgiveness... Like our fathers broke from the Great Apostate, our Prophet broke with these so-called patriots...and today is the day we celebrate the secession...\")) The code refers to them as Crow a lot as well. I suppose if we can ask Ken directly, he could give us a definite answer. He has responded to me before, but on his time, so it really depends, sadly. --''~Ṃᶒɠą§ɔîéɳčę { talk }'' 21:43, April 2, 2013 (UTC) If the opportunity comes up then Ken's word is law, but otherwise I really feel pushed to prioritise anything in-game over titles that don't appear in the game, at all. There's also the practical aspect, of using a name that not only is used most often, but most accurately describes the character and fits with the other Heavy Hitter titles. It's up to you guys, I'm still the noob in this wiki, but if it were up to me I would rename the page back to Crow until a source from the actual game clarifies otherwise. Oh, and sorry if I come off like a dick in my previous comments to Pauolo, I get worked up over stupid things, especially after writing the whole Crow page too late at night. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 22:08, April 2, 2013 (UTC) Okay, its complicated, but to sort this out, there are indeed variations of Crow in the game, such as specifically the veterans with Slate that have the same abilities. Crow is indeed the enemy type, which the main one's name is even seen in the subtitles as "Crow" during the first Order speech (much like if it were like "Policeman" or "Motorized Patriot" when either speaks). Zealot of the Lady is also mentioned, but its more likely reffered for the clan members of the Order, since First Zealot is indeed mentioned in the Voxophone. I understand that this page was a lot to rewrite for you, but I'll try to fix this, by making another page for Zealot as a character, especially since that character's Voxophone Diary needs to be to listed as well. Evans0305 (talk) 09:24, April 4, 2013 (UTC) Wow, this wouldn't allow a name shift back to the original. I know this was a hassel in the Talk page, but I'm pretty certain Crow is the enemy type mentioned in the game, while Zealots are the name of the Order's main members, especially when there are reused veterans with Slate with the same Crow ability that are not Zealots. Evans0305 (talk) 10:01, April 4, 2013 (UTC) : Exactly, everything in the game is pointing to the word "Crow" for the enemy, even the game files according to Megascience(?). I mean, Slate's not gonna have guys dedicated to a Comstock, is he? The normal KKK guys are referred to as Zealots, and while the Crow seems to be an elite version of these, it looks like "Zealot of the Lady" refers to all black-hooded cult guys, whereas "Crow" is the name used for the elite Vigor-using enemies. I agree, there should a be page for Zealots and a separate page for Crows, each linking to the other. But Pauolo insists that some scrappy 12 page guide is more important than the actual game, and it looks like he's put a block on the page or something even though everyone disagrees with him. Not cool, mate. Thegreatvortigaunt (talk) 12:22, April 4, 2013 (UTC) ::I'm not an admin, I can't block name edition of pages so chill out a bit and stop acting like a dick. Also my arguments are pretty reasonable, but I'm waiting to see how the strategy guide names it, because guides are made with materials and info provided by the developers and are usually considered as a good source for potential missing info from the games. ::Pauolo (talk) 13:27, April 4, 2013 (UTC) ::Thegreatvortigaunt, if all the Black hooded guys are Zealots and the Vigour users are Crows, wouldn't that mean all Crows outside Slate's fources are Zealots? Or do the Vox have Crows in their ranks? Not all the hooded guys wear black; the first goons you fight wear blue, and I'm sure the rest of them are black-hooded Crows. And no, the guide isn't twelve pages. Stop exaggerating, it doesn't help your case. For the record, the foreward in my copy was written by Ken Levine, so take that as you see fit. 14:22, April 5, 2013 (UTC) ::You sometimes fight white Zealots/Crows, which is kind of ironic. ::Did anyone notice that the Zealot in red robes had red marks on the back of his casket? ZanyDragon (talk) 01:15, November 27, 2013 (UTC) Vox Populi Secret Vault The v-o-x passageway you open in the bank contains a picture of lady Comstock and an audio diary of her doubts towards the end of her life. I think the red-robed, vox-aligned zealot found in the bank discovered the truth and took up his sword to aid the Vox. Listen to his battle dialogue for more evidence. 05:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC) Inspirational Source LOVECRAFTIAN NECRONOMO-TALK TIME: ADDENDUM: Understanding the "semiotic crypsis" and enciphered cryptogrammar behind the mundane language in this territory is life or death. Pike, in short, was the genetically originary,"Grand Master Mason" (GMM acronym "properly" transliterated, equates to 33...hmm...as GMM = G7+M13x2); UNRELATEDLY (!!!), KKK = K11x3 = 33*... AHEM... I didn't type that... I have more riddles if there are ears not of donkey variety interested... The Raven Order, in reminding the Politically-Correct quotidian world of the all-too-human, fallen origins of things, is a "cool plot prop" (Levine is known for his one-dimensional lack of depth)... (SHUTTING MYSELF UP NOW) The K.K.K. (original) obviously is background material for these foes - and what is little popularly known is the specifically Freemason character (or, if carrying the trowel, "irregular Masonic") of the initial K.K.K. as co-creation of the ex-Confederate General of tacit "white supremacist" beliefs, the Freemasonic "popullarizing philosopher", Albert Pike - so being somehow surprised concerning K.K.K. and para-Masonic/Masonic (one's membership determines the epistemic content here, interestingly) referential simultaneity is only modern people being cognitively dissonant or uneducated, really... What is clear to me is that the interconnected (historically and otherwise) GERMAN/PAN-GERMANIC/PAN-"ARYAN", "proto-Aryosophic" (proto-"Theozoological"), "irregular Masonic" lodges glare from the shadows, to the descrying... The whole "Raven Order" is describable as a hybridized cross-pollination of "orders" such as the initial Pike K.K.K., the Skull and Bones (the modernly-dominating one of notoriety - these "Bonesmen" are truly a tragicomic aburdity: bourgeois upstart weirdos replacing the nobility of old, decadent plutocrat opium-pirates basically, themselves fringe-Masonic, rooted in Germanic territory), more distantly, heresiological quasi-Catharistic exo-Catholic, apocalyptic-minded, Gnostic-Dualist sects (there is definitely a thinly-Mariological, "Magdalenian" component to medieval Germanic-Nordic Christian "Cain-mysticism" of the Rhineland, suited to the Lady Comstock thematic), the Templarian castes conjoined to such currents as "Familiars" or "Fratres", and, simplifying to the present, the "Raven" cultus draws heavily upon the unseen antecessor germs of Nazism itself fascinatingly in extra-American groups of generally Wagnerian, pan-Germanist/pan-Aryanist, pseudo-Templarist "neo-Cathar" type, and their outer degrees, e.g., the Germanenorden... I sound schizotypic or psychotic, man, right? Not so. For starters, see "Occult Roots of Nazism" and "Black Sun" by Nicholas Goodrick-Clarke... The above and related served as material of "artistic creativity" for the game developers and writers here, I have no doubt - and sources of profane kind do not need to "confirm" veracity, for multiple reasons in this special case... Ken Levine not saying "STUDY THE VASTLY COMPLEX, HISTORIC IRANIAN-NORMAN, CATHAR-TEMPLAR HERESIOLOGICAL PHENOMENA, THE ARCHETYPAL DEATH-KNIGHTS OF BERSERK APOCALYPTICISM, KIDDIES" or "STUDY SCHOPENHAUER, WAGNERIAN TEUTONOMANIAC IDEOLOGY AND LISTIAN ARIOSOPHY, KIDS" does not invalidate this "aesthetic assimilation"... Simply look beyond the surface in analyzing the Voxophone from one of these occult or cult leaders a little more rigorously: Ariosophic/Aryosophic, Odinist-Wotanist (hmm, what does the raven as numen, mysteric sword-worship, militaristic necromancy so in-your-face as to be literally SEPULCHRAL, have to do with things here, hmm, HMMM?!), Thulist, pan-Aryanist, "fringe-Masonic" ETC. implicit associations are abundantly cognizable, for those with sufficient vision...of a million-fold watchful orbs all-penetrant, you know... The "matriarchal"-Demetrian, "pseudo-Catholicized" and "pseudo-Templar" exterior "DIMENSION" of straightforwardly reverencing Lady Comstock is part of the ideologically, aesthetically striated synthesis, the genius, I daresay, of the writers and creative agents here: I take nothing away from them, on the contrary, I emphasize the rare intelligence and mastery exhibited, in this space of conceptualization and beyond, across the various planes of this game-more-than-a-game, transforming a video game vendible into the truly "art-work" realm. Bioshock Infinite is "art" per Kantian standards and real, authentic art in video game land is rather acutely rare, to say the least - The thesis is NOT prejudicial to the excellency of the end-product by any means, from any angle or perspective: I am only, probably unsuccessfully, trying to "give a hint" to the seekers of knowledge hereabouts... Perhaps, conceivably, rekindling the subconscious cogitation of certain relevant people, ha... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk • ) 14:26, May 3, 2015 (UTC). Please remember to sign your posts with ~~~~. About Pike and the KKK, I'm no fool. Here is a piece of paper from Pike concerning his "KKK vision", in the American Library of Congress, revealing the connections betwixt Pike, Southern segregationist political "big men", the "KKK", and American "Freemasonry": ..."We would unite every white man in the South, who is opposed to negro suffrage, into one great Order of Southern Brotherhood, with an organization complete, active, vigorous, in which a few should execute the concentrated will of all, and whose very existence should be concealed from all but its members"... Scholastic sourcing: "...Prominent Southern gentlemen were later cited as state leaders of the Invisible Empire. Alabama claimed General John T. Morgan as Grand Dragon. Arkansas was headed by General Albert Pike, explorer and poet. North Carolina was led by former governor Zebulon Vance, and Georgia by General John B. Gordon, later a U.S. Senator..." The Fiery Cross, Oxford University Press, p. 58 Red Zealot: Not Vox Alligned, Siren Alligned I really dont see a Zealot siding with the Vox. But I certainly see one who has encountered the Siren and learned what happened to side against the Founders. 22:53, December 18, 2015 (UTC) Missed Opportunity w/ White Zealots I kinda wish the developers had made it so that Elizabeth's Zealots (from 1980s Comstock House) would summon white crows - it would've been cool. :) Then again, now that I think about it, I suppose it probably wouldn't've looked so effective against the snowy backgroud.... Jane St. Valentine (talk) 10:02, November 3, 2016 (UTC) And people would look at them and ask why they ae being attacked by doves or pigions. sm --Solarmech (talk) 13:09, November 3, 2016 (UTC)